Curse

Raven Wing · Dec 05, 2010, 11:23 AM // 11:23

Just made a full doa run. Euro dist was almost dead so I went to american dist and got in a pug fairly fast. One monk and a dwg were spanish and couldnt even speak english, but the team leader could translate when needed to discuss skills etc. Later it turned out that the the only american on the team was not from USA, but Argentina lol.
I am starting to think that the majority of people in american districts are actually not americans.

MithranArkanere · Dec 05, 2010, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raven Wing

Just made a full doa run. Euro dist was almost dead so I went to american dist and got in a pug fairly fast. One monk and a dwg were spanish and couldnt even speak english, but the team leader could translate when needed to discuss skills etc. Later it turned out that the the only american on the team was not from USA, but Argentina lol.
I am starting to think that the majority of people in american districts are actually not americans.

Wouldn't be surprising at all.
If we had a little flag next to where the Profession letter an level are when you are not in a party, you'll probably see people from everywhere most of the time, and from the USA in a limited frame of time.

Wish Swiftdeath · Dec 05, 2010, 06:33 PM // 18:33

If you go to RA you will notice that 90% of the time the server you're playing in is European even when entering from American districts, so the majority of players in every RA game are European...

Dzjudz · Dec 06, 2010, 02:40 AM // 02:40

5 minutes ago:

Kamadan America: 7 districts
Kamadan Eu-Eng: 7 people

Sifhalla, place of Nicholas the Traveler and yesterday's and today's Zaishen Bounty:
America: 4 districts
Eu-Eng: 4 people

Pleikki · Dec 06, 2010, 09:38 AM // 09:38

I never had any problems with EU servers, Im having way nicer ping there as am euro etc, But allways when i Trade etc, i go American cus there is just more ppl on em. If i play solo ill go euro

Amy Awien · Dec 06, 2010, 10:22 AM // 10:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

5 minutes ago:
Kamadan America: 7 districts
Kamadan Eu-Eng: 7 people

There may be another factor, you post at 3:40 AM, for europe, whichwould be around 7, 8 in the evening in the US. Few people are up at 3:40 AM and those that are might seek out the more populated US servers.

But I don't see more then one EU-E district active at any time.

Coast · Dec 06, 2010, 06:24 PM // 18:24

because we can't stand seeing frogtalk all over the place

AmbientMelody · Dec 07, 2010, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Really? Well, so are spanish and french and with 80 million germans to play with, I don't think they'll begging to play with you.

People around the world aren't going to oblige you, they'll use their own language rather then english. Get over it.

Really? As I've pointed out before, localized (non-english) versions of Guildwars have item names and description in their language. So no, switching to english is not that easy.

Thinking globally includes making room for differences and 'the world' may be different where they live. How can you expect them to use the english names and descriptions when items in their localized versions of Guildwars have descriptions in their language? They probably don't get any RPG-idiom thaught in their english lessons at schools. Get in touch with reality, please.

The ones who need a touch with reality are ignorants, who could switch language to English with mere two clicks in game options and advertise in English to sell/buy stuff faster and have a better go in trade channels. I'm sorry but Spanish, German and French aren't global languages.

I'm afraid that some minimum standard has to be enforced in the game, unless you don't mind an isolated and hostile segment of community, which will only keep growing. People who are capable only of basic interaction with NPCs and mobs on a global level prove detrimental, you can't just ignore the problem that they introduce.

I'm sorry, but these guys aren't playing a SP game, they're supposed to communicate in most basic manner since the actual 'meat' of the game is interacting with other people. This hasn't and won't change, it's all about people.

@ Iuris

By going by your logic it's better for Joe to learn several different languages so that Freddy Jamie and George can all understand him in their native languages, instead of Joe Freddy Jamie and George all learning just one, global language at a most basic, communicative level? Mind I add, poor Joe would have to translate to every one of the participants what the others are talking about, as I don't quite see any sense in Joe Freddy Jamie and George all learning each others' languages, and every one of them using their native language, since the goal is communication and not a course in rhetoric or poetry recitation.

I mean, come on, this is English 101, 3 classes in the primary school! It can be clearly seen in today's world how not knowing most basic English is a problem for everyone involved. Africa, are you kidding me? Playerbase from Africa is so low that it almost doesn't matter, with majority coming from Egypt or South African Republic, likely after basic contact with English language.

The problem lies in Europe, silly national mentality. It's not detrimental for you to learn English besides your native language or any other foreign language. Don't you see it's highly unlikely for a gamer to know various foreign languages? Your only hope is in primary education teaching them basic English. The moment you try to learn them a multitude of languages on a most basic level, you're set for failure.

Give me a viable alternative for mainstream gamers to communicate, which is within bounds of reality, instead of introducing strawman arguments, please. I don't care what a Frenchman thinks when I tell him it's best to use English on the team channel with X people on it, I don't care about his stupid national pride.

As far as I know he isn't playing a localised game version on French-only servers with foreign IP block, therefore it is the Frenchman that is obliged to conform to the rules of 'global game' and not the 'everyone else' that is obliged to conform to the rules of the 'insulted Frenchman'.

Guess what, you have damned Polish, German, French, Spanish, Russian, Chinese and what not in your town district, and it's complete lunacy to expect every single of them to be 'sorry' for not being either a German or a French. Unless all of these different people agree to use a one, common, understandable language, it's basically going nowhere.

Lord Mip · Dec 07, 2010, 11:18 PM // 23:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmbientMelody

Master Rhetorics

This

12 chars

Dzjudz · Dec 08, 2010, 02:13 AM // 02:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmbientMelody

The ones who need a touch with reality are ignorants, who could switch language to English with mere two clicks in game options and advertise in English to sell/buy stuff faster and have a better go in trade channels. I'm sorry but Spanish, German and French aren't global languages.

I'm afraid that some minimum standard has to be enforced in the game, unless you don't mind an isolated and hostile segment of community, which will only keep growing. People who are capable only of basic interaction with NPCs and mobs on a global level prove detrimental, you can't just ignore the problem that they introduce.

I'm sorry, but these guys aren't playing a SP game, they're supposed to communicate in most basic manner since the actual 'meat' of the game is interacting with other people. This hasn't and won't change, it's all about people.

@ Iuris

By going by your logic it's better for Joe to learn several different languages so that Freddy Jamie and George can all understand him in their native languages, instead of Joe Freddy Jamie and George all learning just one, global language at a most basic, communicative level? Mind I add, poor Joe would have to translate to every one of the participants what the others are talking about, as I don't quite see any sense in Joe Freddy Jamie and George all learning each others' languages, and every one of them using their native language, since the goal is communication and not a course in rhetoric or poetry recitation.

I mean, come on, this is English 101, 3 classes in the primary school! It can be clearly seen in today's world how not knowing most basic English is a problem for everyone involved. Africa, are you kidding me? Playerbase from Africa is so low that it almost doesn't matter, with majority coming from Egypt or South African Republic, likely after basic contact with English language.

The problem lies in Europe, silly national mentality. It's not detrimental for you to learn English besides your native language or any other foreign language. Don't you see it's highly unlikely for a gamer to know various foreign languages? Your only hope is in primary education teaching them basic English. The moment you try to learn them a multitude of languages on a most basic level, you're set for failure.

Give me a viable alternative for mainstream gamers to communicate, which is within bounds of reality, instead of introducing strawman arguments, please. I don't care what a Frenchman thinks when I tell him it's best to use English on the team channel with X people on it, I don't care about his stupid national pride.

As far as I know he isn't playing a localised game version on French-only servers with foreign IP block, therefore it is the Frenchman that is obliged to conform to the rules of 'global game' and not the 'everyone else' that is obliged to conform to the rules of the 'insulted Frenchman'.

Guess what, you have damned Polish, German, French, Spanish, Russian, Chinese and what not in your town district, and it's complete lunacy to expect every single of them to be 'sorry' for not being either a German or a French. Unless all of these different people agree to use a one, common, understandable language, it's basically going nowhere.

You don't seriously think that a Dutch person partying with people from other countries types in Dutch in team chat right?

What is the case is that a Dutch person talking to another Dutch person will type in Dutch. It is more convenient, faster, easier and many will have a much broader vocabulary in their own language. What problem do you have if a Dutch person speaks Dutch to another Dutch person? What is being said has nothing to do with you. If they wanted you involved, they'd speak English.

Instead of blaming us for 'national pride', perhaps you should be a little less narrow-minded.

Also, have you ever had problems with people advertising items in other languages? I've seen a German ad once or twice in Kamadan, but that was probably someone in the wrong district.

Bottom line: if non-English-speaking people want to talk to only-English-speaking people, they will use English, don't worry. If they want to talk to each other, their own language is much more convenient.

To counter the argument "go to your own district or international": this holds mostly true for people with their own language district such as French and German, at least at European times. Others, like the Dutch, don't have their own district. For them, there is no difference between Europe-English or America-English (except for ping I guess). What is the deciding factor for their choice of district? Population of course. This dismisses International district and Europe-English (at least, during European off-times).

Simple pragmatism, nothing to do with 'national pride'.

Iuris · Dec 08, 2010, 08:13 AM // 08:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmbientMelody

@ Iuris

Oh, I don't deny it's smart to use english, or rather, whatever language is prevalent in the district you're in. It is the most rational choice, provided you speak the language.

However, in a game where the player base is dwindling, separating districts by language and even demanding people only use those languages in them is not justified.

Why should someone be forced to play in empty districts all alone just because he speaks another language?

Gli · Dec 08, 2010, 08:31 AM // 08:31

AmbientMelody, you seem to be mistaking playing GW for participating in some kind of global online Utopia, whereas it's actually just an entertaining way to move pixels around on a computer monitor. There is no need to communicate with other players other than personal inclination to do so. And there's certainly no need to accommodate anyone in any way other than to avoid falling short of the rules of conduct. Also, there is no community.

Amy Awien · Dec 08, 2010, 10:56 AM // 10:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmbientMelody

The ones who need a touch with reality are ignorants, who could switch language to English with mere two clicks in game options and advertise in English to sell/buy stuff faster and have a better go in trade channels.

And sell the wrong item because they don't quite understand the descriptions.

...

The most probable explantions are (a) they don't know how to switch and (b) they've just returned from a trip and went to Kamadan or LA to sell the loot, forgetting that they're traveling through Us-districts.

Quote:

I'm afraid that some minimum standard has to be enforced in the game,

Localized versions of games exist because the game makers expect to sell enough copies of them to warrant the costs. Localized versions implies you'll meet people less fluent in english then you'd wish. I doubt that is going to change.

Quote:

.. this is English 101, 3 classes in the primary school

Yeah, sure, from "siege" and "enchantment" in class one to "Gargoyle" and "conundrum" in the third class.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmbientMelody

The problem lies in Europe,

The problem lies with intolerance for people using a foreign language, which, for whatever reason, appears to be interpreted as a hostile action.

I don't see what harm is done to you when people use non-english languages to communicate with each other.

Quote:

Don't you see it's highly unlikely for a gamer to know various foreign languages?

Well, now you're almost getting it. It's unlikely that anyone for who english is a foreign languague, and even those who learned a decent amount of english, would be as comfortable with it as with their own language.

It can be extremly fatiguing and frustrating to converse in a language you are not familiar with, in which you've only been taught the basics, in school. From that perspective it is logical when one chooses to limit oneself to the, obviously smaller, circle of people who do use that same language.

People communicate better in their own language then in any foreign language, such as english. Even in mixed groups, whenever they are addressing someone with the same language background, it is likely that they will switch to that language. There is no pride or other badness behind it, it's just how the 'mechanics' of it work.

Quote:

I don't care what a Frenchman thinks when I tell him it's best to use English on the team channel

Maybe you should start to care. I've never met anyone who wouldn't at least try to use something we might both be able to understand, but then, I do not tell people to do things.

If the majority of the team had been using english, he'd probably adapt, if possible. If the team was french, you might have tried to ask them to use english, so you can understand them. But telling them, no, that's not how you get people to cooperate.

Quote:

Give me a viable alternative for mainstream gamers to communicate, ...

Why would they want to communicate with you, or me? What if they're perfectly happy playing the game 'with their friends', just as the box says.

We don't have a right to participate in their conversations, or to become part of their circle. Nor can we demand from anyone that they participate in our english conversations, or that they become part of our circle.

Consider it to be their loss if they can not, or will not, switch to english.

Premium Unleaded · Dec 08, 2010, 04:14 PM // 16:14

I'd also like to point out that I find all too often those who do not speak English as their first language come across more understandable than the stuff 'natives' may spew out. Broken English is one thing, but could be understood based on the context of the situation. I've actually witnessed someone complaining about the use of other languages in LA AD, the irony being they themselves couldn't even string together a conversational sentence fragment that made sense even when resorting to using both texting-speak and slang.

Unreal Warfare · Dec 09, 2010, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

What problem do you have if a Dutch person speaks Dutch to another Dutch person? What is being said has nothing to do with you. If they wanted you involved, they'd speak English.

PM says hai!

Dzjudz · Dec 09, 2010, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Warfare

PM says hai!

Very good. How about a conversation between more than 2 people? And even if 2 people use all chat to talk to each other, how does it in any way affect you?

Anyway, in addition to being imperfect suggestions (yes they all have flaws of their own), all these 'solutions' being brought up (PM, alliance/guild chat, international district) are for a non-existent problem!

Unreal Warfare · Dec 09, 2010, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

How about a conversation between more than 2 people?

Answered this question for me yourself.

Team chat, Guild/Alliance chat, Guest invite Guild Hall Chat, International District.

How in any way does it affect you to use English in a English speaking local district? I use English, not the best at times, but I still have a damn good go. Think of it as learning how to better your alternative language capabilities, it affects you in a positive way rather than a negative way by bettering your lingural skills.

Most people who speak in foreign languages in English districts are more than capable of speaking in English, especially when flinging insults at irritated English or American gamers who ask them to speak English instead of flooding their local chat.

As for how does it affect people (and not just English or American people, but also foreign people who speak English) when your local chat is flooded with a language that no one understands it puts alot of people off from using the local chat, and it segregates gamers, and a community from being built, within that district.

I think personally the people speaking in foreign languages are probably being more selfish than those who request them to speak in a language everyone can understand.

Amy Awien · Dec 09, 2010, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Warfare

Team chat, Guild/Alliance chat, Guest invite Guild Hall Chat, International District.

I don't think people will use the team formation process to enjoy a bit of spontaneous chat or the odd comment when in town.

Quote:

How in any way does it affect you to use English in a English speaking local district?

You seem to have missed it, so I'll repeat it; people communicate better and with less effort when using their own language. They'll also automaticlly swich to it when encountering and addressing someone that has the same 'native' language.

Quote:

... it affects you in a positive way rather than a negative way by bettering your lingural skills.

I know from experience how frustrating it can be when using - having to use - a language you only know a little. It would be silly to use such a language when a better alternative is available. It's even sillier to expect people to not use that better alternative.

To put up an analogy; if I were in a public place, say in spain, with my friend speaking dutch with him do you think it would be considered normal when the locals around us requested - or even demanded - from us that we speak spanish, to each other?

Quote:

Most people who speak in foreign languages in English districts are more than capable of speaking in English...

My crystal ball dropped into a billion pieces the other day, would you mind telling me where you bought yours so I can get one to replace mine?

Quote:

... it segregates gamers, and a community from being built, within that district.

In what way is making a problem out of something that is no problem going to help building a community?

Quote:

I think personally the people speaking in foreign languages are probably being more selfish than those who request them to speak in a language everyone can understand.

I think exactly the opposite, but at least I have decent arguments.

Unreal Warfare · Dec 09, 2010, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

I don't think people will use the team formation process to enjoy a bit of spontaneous chat or the odd comment when in town.

Such a shame seems it just creates a bigger problem. Ever been in Shing Jea of Kamadan Euro English 1 when foreign players are in full swing in local chat? You try getting a word in when the local chat is flooded with a language you cannot understand.

Maybe I should go to French or German servers and start flooding their local chats with my own language with my friends and see how much they actually like it. I don't mean for just one or two lines, but a full blown conversation for a good few hours.

Sounds like fun.

Quote:

You seem to have missed it, so I'll repeat it; people communicate better and with less effort when using their own language. They'll also automaticlly swich to it when encountering and addressing someone that has the same 'native' language.

I didn't miss it. Alot of these people do not even attempt to speak English, they always speak their own languages, even when they are quite capable of speaking English. I personally know a few players who can speak good English yet will still only speak their own language in local regardless.

Quote:

I know from experience how frustrating it can be when using - having to use - a language you only know a little. It would be silly to use such a language when a better alternative is available. It's even sillier to expect people to not use that better alternative.

You seem quite good at typing English now. How did you manage that without practising?

Stop trying to play the inability card when alot of the problem in this respect stems from a players disregard for use, rather than inability to use.

Quote:

To put up an analogy; if I were in a public place, say in spain, with my friend speaking dutch with him do you think it would be considered normal when the locals around us requested - or even demanded - from us that we speak spanish, to each other?

Your analogy is pointless because, quite simply, you are talking to someone from another country who speaks a different main language than English.

I've been there, done that, and my English is alot better because I took the time to practise it and learn how to apply it within different enviroments.

Would you really go to another country and not attempt to use their language at all? That's just disrespectful, and ignorant.

And for the record my workplace is English speaking only. We have Polish, Albanian, Algerian, Somlian, Hungarian, and Chinese staff working among English. So if you think that stuff like this isn't applied in the real world then you need to start looking at the real world with open eyes.

Quote:

My crystal ball dropped into a billion pieces the other day, would you mind telling me where you bought yours so I can get one to replace mine?

Use your common sense. You're proving my exact point by understanding everything I say to you right now. There are a few foreign players in this thread using good English skills. Can't speak? Won't speak?

Quote:

In what way is making a problem out of something that is no problem going to help building a community?

On second thoughts if you cannot understand why this is a problem after so many pages already of people putting forward several different opinions over the matter maybe I was wrong about your ability to read/speak English? Which one is it? Can read? Won't read?

Quote:

I think exactly the opposite, but at least I have decent arguments.

No, your arguments are pretty poor when you come up against someone who doesn't even speak English as a main language who has completely opposite views compared to your own.

While in the mean time this entire debate has been made by players from a variety of nationalities, in English.

I think that pretty much kills off anything else you have to say on the matter.

Amy Awien · Dec 09, 2010, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Warfare

... Ever been in Shing Jea of Kamadan Euro English 1 when foreign players are in full swing in local chat? ...

Nope. Never noticed any language related problem, not once. But I am not easily annoyed when something looking like linenoise floats by.

Note that if it's very busy you may not get a response to your queries whatever languages are used, your message gets drowned anyway.
Also note that if there's so much non-english chat your english message is more likely to get read by english users then when all the chat is in english.

Quote:

I didn't miss it. Alot of these people do not even attempt to speak English, they always speak their own languages, even when they are quite capable of speaking English.

It's their right to not speak english.

I probably wouldn't speak english with dutch friends either, unless there where people participating in the conversation who didn't speak dutch.

Quote:

You seem quite good at typing English now. How did you manage that without practising?

Not by speaking english with my friends (not even on foreign marketplaces), with them I use dutch or limburgs, depending on who I am speaking with.

Quote:

Stop trying to play the inability card

Inability has nothing to do with. People will use the language that's the best and most suitable for use between them, without regard to an audience.

You can stand upside down, or threathen them with the A-bomb, between them they will still use their own language. Problems do not arise from them doing so, but from others making a fuzz about it.

Quote:

Your analogy is pointless because, quite simply, you are talking to someone from another country who speaks a different main language than English.

I was talking dutch to my dutch friend while in spain. If I was speaking to someone else I might use german, or english, or french if none of the others work out.

But when you're not part of the conversation, you can not expect people to use a language you understand.

If people are trying to speak with you in a language you don't know they most likely don't know what language you speak, or they don't know the language (they think) you do speak.

Quote:

Would you really go to another country and not attempt to use their language at all? That's just disrespectful, and ignorant.

I'd speak dutch when talking with my friend and attempt to speak their language, or something we'd all understand, when speaking with people of that country.

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So if you think that stuff like this isn't applied in the real world ...

I've handled multi-lingual situations for most of my life, which might well be longer then you've lived.

Quote:

... by understanding everything I say to you right now.

We are discussing on a public forum, not a marketplace, and not in Kamadan. People who join here and discuss are likely to understand english good enough to do so - it would afterall be pointless if they didn't. You simply don't know how well someone in Kamadan can use english.

Quote:

... if you cannot understand why this is a problem

I do understand, and I've been pointing it out, you just don't know how to read it: it is a problem only when you are make it a problem.

Quote:

No, your arguments are pretty poor when you come up against someone who doesn't even speak English as a main language who has completely opposite views compared to your own.

You aren't making any sense, our arguments are not weighed by how well you or I can make use of the english language.

Quote:

I think that pretty much kills off anything else you have to say on the matter.

No, it would prove my point, we use the language that is, afawk, best suitable for the two of us to discuss with. If we'd both been dutch, or german, the use of dutch, or german, would have allowed us to better express our idea's then we can in english.